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| Phew, snow holiday over. | ||
| <bess1> | jrochkind: did you get your invite to libdevconapalooza yet? | 12:21 |
| <jrochkind> | bess1: yeah, from naomi, thanks! It's up to the boss of course. | |
| <bess1> | I hope you can come. | |
| <jrochkind> | bess1: you guys thinking we could spend some quality time talking about Blacklight? | |
| <bess1> | yeah, that's the main focus, really | 12:22 |
| <jrochkind> | If we were going to talk in person about blacklight a lot, that might persuade the boss that we shouod go. | |
| Sweet. | ||
| If I end up going, I might also want to try to get you guys to make me spend 20 minutes pitching Umlaut. As usual. :) | ||
| s/make me/let me/ | ||
| <bess1> | that would be awesome. :) | 12:23 |
| <jrochkind> | sadly, at the moment emailing my boss has a two week turnaround for him to get back to me. he's way over-committed right now. who knows if he'll even think about the palooza thing in time. | 12:24 |
| <bess1> | :( | 12:25 |
| <jrochkind> | maybe some day they'll actually hire the new boss. | |
| <bess1> | would it help for Tom Cramer to talk to him? Or to Sayeed? | |
| Or is Sayeed your boss right now? | ||
| Tom is good at lobbying. :) | 12:26 | |
| <jrochkind> | bess1: Sayeed is the boss in question. :) Naomi said Tom already emailed him. Which I'm sure will help, if he sees the email and thinks about it sometime in 2010. :) | |
| <bess1> | Yeah, but Tom could *call* him, is my point. | |
| <jrochkind> | bess1: Might help, yeah. Not sure, really. | |
| <MrDys> | if it gets closer to the wire, a phonecall would work | 12:27 |
| <jrochkind> | bess1: on another topic, I'm curious about your position at Stanford. What's your org relationship to Naomi and Jesse? In the same unit as them? Is one of you the other one's supervisor? | |
| <bess1> | I'm not in the same workgroup as them, but we're both in groups that report to Tom Cramer | 12:28 |
| I'm mostly working on BL as a front end for a digital repository | ||
| and they're mostly working on it as a library catalog | ||
| <jrochkind> | aha, I see. | |
| <bess1> | so we work together a lot, but on different projects | |
| <jrochkind> | cool. | |
| If only I had gotten you to apply to be my boss instead. :) | ||
| <MrDys> | bess1: is hydra an ongoing project? | |
| <bess1> | MrDys: yeah, hydra is basically what I'm working on | 12:29 |
| hydra == blacklight on top of fedora | ||
| there's more to it than that, like ActiveFedora, but that's hydra in a nutshell | ||
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| <jrochkind> | ndushay: hey, you there? | 13:23 |
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| <ndushay> | jrochkind: hi | 16:05 |
| MrDys: are you sean? | 16:06 | |
| <jrochkind> | ndushay: I already emailed you, no worries. About things you could, if you wanted, suggest to Tom he say to Sayeed. Me and Sean may or may not make it, no big deal either way, although it'd be nice to be there. | |
| <MrDys> | ndushay: oui | |
| <jrochkind> | I get the sense that Tom saying 1) We are planning on spending significant time talking about Blacklight, and 2) It might make sense for Sean and Jonathan to go: Would make a big difference. | 16:07 |
| If this channel is logged, we also might want to have this conversation in a different channel, if it needs to be had. :) | ||
| <BillDueber> | Damn. All teh fun stuff happens off the logs. | |
| <ndushay> | jrochkind: none of this is secret | |
| all we're saying is "it would be useful to be able to get together in person. How can we make it happen?" | 16:08 | |
| everyone has a boss. | ||
| <jrochkind> | Okay, we can have it there, I just won't say anything else about my supervisor's opinions. heh. | |
| <ndushay> | mostly i drive Tom nuts | |
| <jrochkind> | ndushay: it was not clear to Sayeed from Tom's previous conversation that the meeting had anything to do with Blacklight, or that Tom or Stanford folks wanted me or Sean there. Is all I'm saying. | |
| <ndushay> | that's one of my jobs | |
| yeah, well, we're off today | ||
| <jrochkind> | Darn, I just said something else about my supervisor's opinion! It's ME who doesn't feel comfortable talking about this in public, not you. :) | 16:09 |
| <ndushay> | and tom can be hard to catch, but we'll manage | |
| I've been lobbying like mad to have developers here, not just managers | ||
| see note about about driving tom nuts | 16:10 | |
| <jrochkind> | When I said I had clarified that you guys planned to talk about BL.... he basically said he would have to double check that with Tom, to make sure I got it right. | |
| <ndushay> | ok | |
| yes, blacklight | ||
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| <ndushay> | and who is here will pull the discussions | |
| esp developer level discussinos. | ||
| there will be some time to talk about projects | ||
| i don't know about 20 min though. | 16:11 | |
| <jrochkind> | As far as I can tell, he thinks it's a meeting for managers, and won't have anything to do with Blacklight. So if Tom called him up and said "We'd like to get developers there, and if we got enough Blacklight developers here like yours, then we'd really like to talk about Blacklight", then he might send me and MrDys. shrug. Out of my hands. | |
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| <ndushay> | bess and i will work on him | 16:12 |
| we want developers | ||
| <jrochkind> | "he" above was my boss, not yours. I have no idea what your boss thinks. :) As far as I can tell, my boss is unlikely to send developers unless yours encourages him to. :) | 16:13 |
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| <vahid> | hello, i see in this address ( http://www.fedora-commons.org/confluence/display/FEDORACREATE/Complete+Solutions )name of BlackLight, how Blacklight use fedora ? | 16:20 |
| <MrDys> | vahid: blacklight can be used as an interface to fedora | 16:24 |
| <vahid> | how ? | 16:25 |
| <MrDys> | http://www.fedora-commons.org/confluence/display/hydra/The+Hydra+Project | |
| I don't know a ton about it, but that should get you started | ||
| <vahid> | in fact i want to integrate solrmarc with fedora. does blacklight do this ? | 16:27 |
| <bess_away> | hi, vahid: | 16:28 |
| you want to integrate *solrmarc* with fedora? | ||
| what would that look like? | ||
| <bess> | are you trying to put marc records into fedora? I don't understand. | |
| <vahid> | something like this | 16:29 |
| is this good idea ? | ||
| <bess> | no, I don't understand why you would do that | |
| solrmarc is for marc —> solr | ||
| <vahid> | do you have other suggestion ? | 16:30 |
| <bess> | you can also index your fedora objects —> solr | |
| blacklight is a front end for solr | ||
| what are you trying to do? | ||
| vahid: what are you trying to do? | 16:31 | |
| <vahid> | i want to design my own ils and also library repository and i want to use from fedora for repository and solr for indexing searching | |
| <bess> | okay | 16:32 |
| <vahid> | and java programming language | |
| <bess> | so you should use fedora for the repository | |
| why do you want to design your own ILS? | ||
| Do you really mean ILS, or are you maybe talking about the OPAC (the front end)? | 16:33 | |
| <vahid> | no ils | |
| <bess> | So you want to build something that manages the actual book collection, helps with cataloging, does circulation, etc? | |
| <vahid> | we have a collection of jpeg images | |
| <bess> | okay | |
| <vahid> | almost 100,000 picture | |
| <bess> | yes | |
| and what else? | 16:34 | |
| Just jpegs, or what other collections? | ||
| <vahid> | yes whole ils | |
| <bess> | I just want to make sure we're talking about the same thing: | |
| <vahid> | no currently photos | |
| <bess> | an ILS is for managing physical collections of books | |
| a digital repository is for managing digital collections of images | ||
| <vahid> | yes | 16:35 |
| <bess> | so far I've only heard you mention digital collections of images | |
| that's why I'm confused about why you want an ILS | ||
| <vahid> | we a library | |
| <bess> | okay | |
| what ILS do you use now? | ||
| <vahid> | and want an ILS | |
| <bess> | do you have one right now at all? | 16:36 |
| <vahid> | and we have a photo collection | |
| <bess> | okay | |
| <vahid> | currently nothing | |
| <bess> | so you want an ILS, AND you want a repository, and you want to make them both searchable? | |
| Now we're getting somewhere! | ||
| <vahid> | yes | 16:37 |
| <bess> | How big is your physical collection? How many books do you have? | |
| <vahid> | you got it | |
| currently i think 10,000 and is growing to reachs for example 100,000 | 16:38 | |
| <bess> | okay | |
| Have you looked at Koha yet? | ||
| What languages do you need to support? | ||
| <vahid> | and collection photos number is 100,000 and is also growing | 16:39 |
| <bess> | okay, so let's talk this through one piece at a time | |
| <vahid> | java and need rtl for arabic | |
| <bess> | I think that Koha support arabic… let's look | |
| <vahid> | i know | 16:40 |
| but i want to wright my own with java | ||
| <bess> | are you SURE??? | |
| that is a crazy amount of work | ||
| <vahid> | of cource not as complete as koha is | 16:41 |
| <bess> | okay | |
| well, if you really want to write your own I won't try to talk you out of it then | ||
| okay, so what you want, it sounds like, is maybe fedora for your image repository? | ||
| <vahid> | yes | 16:42 |
| <bess> | and then you put your marc records —> solr (using solrmarc if you want) | |
| and index your fedora objects —> solr | ||
| <vahid> | yes | |
| <bess> | and then you put blacklight in front of solr | |
| <vahid> | yes | |
| yes | ||
| <bess> | but solrmarc won't put anything into fedora, which is what you asked originally | |
| <vahid> | i want to save marc records in database and say solr to indexs them | 16:43 |
| <bess> | okay | |
| so, solrmarc could help you with that | ||
| if you're working with java it might be easier for you just to use marc4j | 16:44 | |
| which is the java marc library | ||
| <vahid> | ok | |
| my sql or post gres, which one is better ? | 16:45 | |
| for my purpose | 16:46 | |
| <bess> | for storing marc records? no idea! Sorry. | |
| Evergreen ILS uses postgres | ||
| so maybe you could look at their code and see how they did it? | ||
| They're on #evergreen too if you want to talk to those developers | ||
| <vahid> | i talked them and told me that they think postgres is better than mysql | 16:47 |
| <bess> | then they're probably right | 16:48 |
| they would know more than I would | ||
| <vahid> | so can i integrate fedora and solrmarc forindexing records from database in my web app ? | 16:49 |
| is it possible ? | ||
| <bess> | you can use fedora to manage your photos, and index it with solr | 16:50 |
| and you can use whatever you want to manage your marc records, and index them with solr | ||
| you can put all of that into the same solr index | ||
| and then all of your collections are searchable in the same place | ||
| I don't know if that's what you mean by integrated | ||
| <vahid> | aha the problem is here that i dont know how to adjust fedora and solrmarc so that they can use one solr | 16:52 |
| <bess> | oh that's easy | 16:53 |
| <vahid> | sorry for my poor english, exuse me | |
| <bess> | it's okay! | |
| My Arabic is terrible. ;) | 16:54 | |
| <vahid> | ;) | |
| <bess> | So in order to put both your marc records and your fedora records into the same solr index... | |
| you just have to make sure that all of the fields are defined in the same solr index | ||
| so for example | ||
| we use title_text | 16:55 | |
| and then both marc titles and fedora titles get indexed into that field, right? | ||
| but if there are other fields that only one uses, that's fine! | ||
| <vahid> | whats your opinion about extensible catalog about my work ? | |
| http://www.extensiblecatalog.org/ | ||
| <bess> | Do you mean the XC project? | |
| <vahid> | yes | 16:56 |
| <bess> | Well, it's hard to say | |
| The main thing I've seen them produce was a metadata editor | ||
| So… do you need a metadata editor? | ||
| <vahid> | you mean for example for editing marc records ? | 16:57 |
| <bess> | yes, or other kinds of metadata | |
| MODS? | ||
| <vahid> | yes | |
| <bess> | So, maybe you want to use XC as a metadata editor | 16:58 |
| <vahid> | maybe i think | |
| <bess> | Hard to say, I haven't really used their product | |
| It isn't useful for us | ||
| <jrochkind> | Definitely I'd say that writing a robust ILS for a medium sized or larger library may be a more complicated project than you are anticipating. :) | 16:59 |
| <bess> | Yeah, I really don't recommend trying to write an ILS. But I already tried to talk him out of it! :) | |
| <vahid> | yes your right | 17:00 |
| you are right | ||
| <jrochkind> | bess: XC has a metadata management module (which I think is actually really really cool), and an OPAC-y thing built on top of Drupal (which I have no opinion of, not really interested). | |
| * tachyonwill_ leaves | ||
| <vahid> | so you recommand me to use koha or evergreen ? | 17:01 |
| <bess> | Yeah, the metadata thing is the only thing I know of that seems interesting | |
| vahid: I would really really recommend using koha or evergreen instead of trying to write your own ILS | ||
| of those, Koha already has Arabic localization | 17:02 | |
| <jrochkind> | I would recommend you look at koha or evergreen, yeah. If they don't do what you want, trying to develop enhancements to them to do what you want will be less work than writing your own ILS from scratch. | |
| <bess> | but Evergreen has more work done to index with solr, if that's what you want to do | |
| Evergreen has an internationalization framework, but I don't think it has been translated into Arabic yet | ||
| <jrochkind> | you could of course use Koha, but not it's OPAC, and just export to Blacklight for the opac. But Blacklight is kind of a work in progress too. | |
| Or write your own Solr stuff from scratch on top of Koha. You have many options. | 17:03 | |
| <vahid> | yes they have not do that yet | |
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| <vahid> | my problem is with perl | |
| <jrochkind> | yeah, I'm not a perl fan either, I sympathize. | 17:05 |
| But, depending on your requirements, writing an ILS from scratch is a really large project. | ||
| <vahid> | can you tell me why do they use perl in koha and evergreen / | |
| ? | ||
| <bess> | vahid: who knows? They like perl for some reason. :) | 17:07 |
| <vahid> | :) | |
| <jrochkind> | The people that wrote it like perl. shrug. | 17:08 |
| <vahid> | wht do you use ruby ? | 17:11 |
| why dont you use java ? | ||
| <bess> | Blacklight uses ruby, yes | |
| b/c we like ruby! :) | ||
| marc4j uses java | ||
| solrmarc uses java | ||
| <vahid> | thats it ? | |
| you like ruby ? | 17:12 | |
| <bess> | well, we thought ruby was fun to use and had a lot of neat features | |
| <vahid> | any other reason ? | |
| <bess> | Integrated testing | |
| Resume driving development. :) | ||
| <vahid> | i saw vufind uses php also | 17:13 |
| <jrochkind> | I like ruby. Because it's a well designed language. I dunno. | |
| <vahid> | i thought that java is poor in this case | 17:14 |
| <jrochkind> | I do not like writing code in Java, but some people do. Talking programming languages is often compared to talking religions. | |
| <vahid> | thats why almost nobody use java. not evergreen ,not koha ,not you, not vufind | 17:15 |
| :) | ||
| <jrochkind> | plenty of people use java. But you're right it seems to be less common in library projects. XC uses Java though. | 17:16 |
| I think when you let the programmers pick what to use, few of them will use Java. When you have a large beurocracy picking what to use, they often pick Java. | 17:17 | |
| <vahid> | how can i order blacklight to index recors without first exporting records from ils then solr srart indexing them ? | 17:20 |
| <jrochkind> | vahid: you can't. | 17:24 |
| * bess leaves | 17:27 | |
| <vahid> | why ? is there any way ? | 17:31 |
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| <jrochkind> | vahid: Blacklight gets it's data from a solr index. So you've got to get the data into a solr index. | 17:43 |
| vahid: If not by exporting it from your ILS, then how? It's gotta come out of your ILS somehow. | ||
| vahid: Oh wait, do you not even have an ILS? I thought you meant you had records in the ILS and wanted to get them into Blacklight/Solr. | 17:44 | |
| <vahid> | yes | |
| <jrochkind> | vahid: If your data isn't in an ILS in the first place, sure, you can put it in Solr/Blacklight without putting it in an ILS first. | |
| vahid: Where is your data, and in what format? You just need to write software to take your data and index it in solr. Or find existing software to do that from the format and type of store your data is in now. | 17:45 | |
| <vahid> | wait | |
| suppose that i decide to use koha or evergreen | ||
| <jrochkind> | Then if you wanted to use a Solr-based index (including with Blacklight), you'd need to get your data from koha or evergreen into a Solr index. | 17:46 |
| <vahid> | then can i write program that when i create new record i n koha immediately index it ? | |
| <jrochkind> | The easiest way is to export it. | |
| vahid: Sure, you could write such a program, if it's feasible in Koha. You are right. | ||
| vahid: I am not familiar with Koha. | ||
| vahid: I am going to eventually try to hack that into my proprietary Horizon ILS. Not just 'creating' a record, but any edits to the record, may require a re-index of that record. But, yes, you have the right idea. | 17:47 | |
| If it's possible, that is preferable, you're right. Most ILSs don't make that easy. Koha it might be easier. | ||
| <vahid> | ok jrochkind i have to go , thanks about your answers see you tomorrow, i hope. | 17:51 |
| <jrochkind> | good luck man. | 17:52 |
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| <mattmitchell> | wow, are people still in here? | 21:25 |
| <bess> | hey, mattmitchell | 21:26 |
| <mattmitchell> | bess: ya'll are hardcore :) | |
| i forgot my client was still open | ||
| hey, i'm coming to california! | 21:27 | |
| <bess> | NO WAY!! | |
| omg so happy! | ||
| <mattmitchell> | yes way, really excited :) | |
| guy came in today and said no problem | ||
| <bess> | that is so awesome | |
| <mattmitchell> | i was pretty surprised. yeah, looking forward to it. | |
| <bess> | yippee!! | 21:28 |
| that's so awesome | ||
| congratulations | ||
| and so lucky for us! | ||
| oh man we're going to have such an awesome time | ||
| <mattmitchell> | it'll be a blast. 3 days of pure geekdom. | 21:29 |
| <bess> | yippee! | |
| <mattmitchell> | now, i'm still pretty green on hydra. i may have to start researching what all is going on with that project. | 21:30 |
| <bess> | okay | 21:31 |
| basically hydra == blacklight on top of fedora | ||
| <mattmitchell> | but it sounds like... BL eating fedora content? | |
| ok right | ||
| <bess> | instead of on top of marc records | |
| yeah | ||
| it's a LOT like NWDA actually | ||
| <mattmitchell> | ahh cool | |
| <bess> | just indexing different kinds of things into solr | |
| <mattmitchell> | right | |
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